Why “PUA’s” Are My Toughest Clients

It’s actually rare that I’m challenged these days. You work with me, you get your social life (including your life with women) handled. You never have to worry about it again. Period.

While it’s usually easy for me to deliver on this promise (I take my 100% success rate very personally) – every once in awhile I do face a more challenging client. Keep in mind, these challenges never come in the form of physical limitations. I’ve worked with short guys, guys with stutters, guys in their fifties, guys who are blind, and guys with Aspergers. Hell, give me any physical limitation commonly thought to hold a guy’s social and dating life back and I barely bat an eyelash. Those aren’t my tough clients.

They mean well, they really do.

The only challenges that I ever face come when a guy has negative beliefs that he is unwilling to let go of. While this can happen to anyone, the category of guys that most consistently challenges even my perfect record, is what’s known as the Pickup Artist, or “PUA”. Most well known from the VH1 show by the same name, these are the guys most well known for dressing ridiculously and using scripted lines to talk to girls. While it would be incredibly easy to write this phenomenon off as a sideshow, there’s a surprising number of guys who buy into their philosophies – even if they’re not wearing a feathered boa. Unfortunately it’s gotten to the point where I’ve begun screening these guys out of my program, and thus this article needs to be written.

It’s not even the weird, technical language such as “set” and “HB8” they use to separate themselves from the rest of society, dehumanizes women, and creeps out any normal human being within earshot – that’s an easy fix – stop talking like a weirdo. Rather, the PUA subculture has two beliefs which are almost ingrained into their being that directly contradict what teach. Keep in mind, there are plenty of guys who use that acronym to describe themselves for whatever reason who don’t have these mindsets, but from what I’ve observed it really does pertain to the majority, at least among their representatives with which I’ve worked.

The first sabotaging belief that they hold to their core is that women, especially beautiful women have a higher value than they do. They put these women on a pedestal and then believe that they somehow have to win them over, or say things that actively demonstrate their own value in order to level the playing field. If a woman isn’t in the mood to talk, it isn’t because she’s in a bad mood, it’s because they said or did the wrong thing.

Any woman reading this immediately knows how crazy this sounds. Ninety nine percent of women, regardless of beauty, would trade places with a man in a heartbeat. The most beautiful women know that there’s always a prettier girl, and it’s only a matter of time before their looks fade. All but the most superficial know that’s not real value, and they all know that a man, or anyone with true confidence is rare, and is the highest source of “value” in a social situation.

The second limiting belief that will forever make PUA’s my most difficult clients is that it’s what you say – specifically how funny or clever what you say is – that best displays your value and will get a woman, or anyone to like you. What else would you expect from a culture that says, “here are some clever things to say, this is how you get her to like you”.

Women, once again, are right with me on this one because the most common complaint they have in regards to man is, “he’s not listening to me, he’s just waiting for his turn to talk”. PUA’s exemplify this as they desperately try to say the “right thing” searching for the most clever joke they can make that they’re sure will get the girls to be more response. The thing is, you can say the most clever thing in the world and if you weren’t fully listening to every last word she said because you couldn’t wait to try to impress her – she won’t respond well. Meanwhile, if you really pay attention to everything she said, and make some dumb joke that shows you were really paying attention, she’ll laugh as though you’re the funniest man alive. What you say matters only as far as it shows you’re really listening to her.

It’s not complicated, but this combination of thinking they need to impress women and feeling that the words coming out of their mouth are the way to do it lead to guys running around like tap-dancing monkeys, spitting out line after line hoping that the next one is the one that “hooks the set”. Ultimately though, even though they sometimes find a girl who will hook up with them despite their cluelessness, most women are wondering why he’s trying so hard, the guys are frustrated because they’re usually putting in way more effort than they’re getting in return, and they’re dissatisfied with their lack of consistency and the ultimate knowledge that they’re doing something wrong.

Like I said, if you want to believe these things, go right ahead, and good luck. Just know that these beliefs are the reason why you’ll always feel like you’re missing something, and the reason why I’ll refer you to another program.

24 thoughts on “Why “PUA’s” Are My Toughest Clients

  1. Perfect. Exactly what I have witnessed in my own experience coaching PUAs.

    My best clients are actually the guys who have little or no experience with the Seduction Community. They are more willing to listen, they are more willing to trust what I teach them and they are more willing to just do what I tell them to do.

    PUAs always argue with me on the rhetoric of what’s attractive, what’s alpha… and whether the woman is giving him enough indicators of interest.

    Constantly analyzing an interaction with such scrutiny is just tiring!!!! I hope they could just learn to relax and have a bit more fun.

  2. Thanks for sharing, and it’s great to hear from you Khiem!

    And yeah, it’s like I always say: This is talking to girls, if you’re not having fun you’re doing it wrong.

  3. I find that the “seduction community” guys that roll into one of my classes (they never do a private session to work on inner life or embodiment practices first off) is that they feel inclined to “get one over” on me to have a sense of control in the presence of a female which only showcases they feel very out of control and in a place of fear. They are suspicious of everything which puts up roadblocks to getting valuable additional support in a cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face kinda way. They are so desperate for a peer group sense of belonging they will follow their chosen “guru” blindly as if in a cult. Its sad at the very least and scary too because it isn’t true empowerment, its empowerment looking things wrapped around a dead end. So once again we woman are still left without very many strong men to lead us. The world is fucked without the majority of men on the planet becoming truly empowered. Women and children are less when men aren’t more.

  4. Ok so let’s say, hypothetically of course, that a guy reading this blog does think that hot women are above him. He likes what you have to say, and is open minded. He can see the logic in what you’re saying, and he wants to believe it. But still he doesn’t… He goes out, sees a beautiful woman and the feeling in his gut makes it very clear that he thinks she has more value/status/whatever than he does.

    How might a guy who has an open mind, and wants to adjust his perceptions and beliefs to better match what your saying go about doing that?

    Any particular things to think through, or possible actions and behaviors? Let’s also say that this guy doesn’t currently have a ton of super hot female friends that he can talk to about this and get their feedback, that presumably confirms your thoughts.

    How might he begin to see the world more like you do?

  5. This is totally a bash that I don’t approve of. But it’s a free world. Sure it’s a rant, but it isn’t reasonable.

    What you teach is virtually pickup/seduction, so I don’t get the hypocrisy.

    • There’s a big difference between what I teach and what pickup/seduction teaches aside from the obvious emphasis they put on what to say that I don’t.

      Pickup/seduction is of the mindset that men can learn some skills and techniques to attract women that normally wouldn’t be attracted to them. The thing they forget is that women are naturally attracted to men. Men don’t have to do anything special, just stop sabotaging the natural process.

      What I do is help men stop sabotaging themselves. Pickup feeds the male ego telling him he can get some superpowers with women, when every “pickup” that a guy ever has, the woman is just as responsible for making it happen as he is. You don’t have to ‘seduce’ or ‘pickup’ a woman – women seduce themselves as long as you’re not messing things up. Pickup makes the easy and most natural thing in the world seem difficult, like you need some special skills that take time to learn to do it. I just show easy it is, and how guys don’t need to develop some new skill to meet women, they simply have to use what they already have – no matter who he is or where he’s coming from.

    • And instead of just calling my article unreasonable, please list the parts that you disagree with

  6. Sure getting women shouldn’t be rocket science, but you have to understand that for the average guy who haven’t had success with women; it’s the hardest thing in the world.

    Before getting into pickup, I wasn’t getting laid! Since entering the community, I was getting laid like a rockstar. So what are you telling me, that what I’d learned didn’t work or is useless? Obviously not! I’m testimonial.

    You’re quite right, a woman actually dictates how the seduction goes. She can put brakes or make it accelerate as long as the guy doesn’t mess it up as you said. What we teach in the seduction community, is to not fuck up your chances by sucking up to the girl. So how can you knock the PUA community when we teach guys what works.

    And what is wrong with we using acronyms: HB9’s, AFC’s, Beta male,etc. This is a community of men. It’s an organization of a sorts. Every organization has structure, rules, lingo, codes, etc. (Be it Al-Qaeda, political parties or a sorority). So your point to bash the use of our lingo just comes off a hatred. We don’t go up to girls and say, “Hey you’re an HB5”. That is fucking inside lingo for us to use and establish a sense of fellowship.

    So your diatribe of the community comes off as a senseless rant opposed to having an once of rationality.

  7. Plus, little do you know Nick, women are fascinated by pickup and the seduction community.

    90% of the commentors on my blog are women. They are intrigued that such a community exists. So it’s a plus/DHV that a guy can relay PUA insights to women while in set (as I do).

    Every girl I’ve ever banged over the past 3 years, I told them about pickup and that I am a pick-up artist PRIOR to picking them up. They were fascinated by what an Alpha Male was.

    So you don’t have a point in bad mouthing the community.

    • “So you don’t have a point in bad mouthing the community.”

      Actually, I do. It doesn’t matter how many women you’ve dated think that pickup is attractive (did you mention the acronyms?).

      The point I have is that the guys who have studied this stuff are my toughest clients and it makes my job more difficult. No one in the world can refute this – it’s my observation after working with hundreds of guys, noticing that some were more difficult than others and recognizing the pattern of why.

      Now, if something unnecessarily made your job and life in general more difficult, would you have a point in saying something about it?

      • “are my toughest clients it makes my job more difficult.”

        Every person ever on the planet wishes their job only has easy clients. If you’re going to learn to instruct ANY client truly unbiased, you need to accept that other people think differently than you and are therefore, potentially more challenging. Don’t just rip people you don’t like simply because you don’t like their mentality.

        There’s only two ways to view your perspective.
        1. You have never studied information on PUA and applied it to real world practice in order to truly understand it, which would 100% invalidate your opinion on PUAs because you know absolutely nothing about the community of people you are putting down.
        2.The opposite. This would mean you HAVE studied, learned, and practiced PUA material & do fully understand enough to validate your opinion as an authority. If that second one is true, then you are either intentionally ripping the community to demonstrate higher value to unsuspecting customers in an attempt to psychologically manipulate them into your brand to stir up business by hating on the very community that has laid the groundwork of your success.. or.. your conscious mind rejects pickup artistry as a legitimate art form as a narrow minded attempt to feed your ego that you are some sort of a “natural” when in fact, you studied enough and practiced enough to get good enough to not HAVE to think in social situations, denying affiliation with the very community responsible for not only teaching you everything you know about how to become successful with women and creating the very business model that provides you a living.

      • Hey Count Mackula, thanks for your perspective.

        To disagree, there’s definitely more than two ways to view my perspective. It actually comes from working with hundreds of guys, seeing a particular “tough spot” for them over and over, asking about why they did things the old way and them referring to teachings that they attributed to the pua community.

        As with all of my articles, I address something that I see hindering a lot of guys’ progress and offer an alternative path.

        What’s interesting is that you attempt to assume why I’m “slandering the pua” community, but you don’t attempt to address any of the specific points I make about it. I’ve got nothing against the community as a whole, just against specific things they promote.

        Do they still promote remembering canned things to say? If not than my article is invalid. If they do, do you believe that one can try to remember what line comes next while simultaneously fully listening to what the other person is saying? Do you believe that saying something clever or interesting is more important than listening to what the other person has to say? Do you believe that women start off with a higher value in social situations and men need to demonstrate theirs by saying specific things? I’ve come to disagree with the above statements based on my experience coaching. If you agree with them then I respect your opinion as long as you’re completely happy and confident in your dating life. Whatever works for you.

        Thanks again for sharing.

  8. “for the average guy who haven’t had success with women; it’s the hardest thing in the world”

    People think this because most of society, including the pickup community, says it hard – otherwise there wouldn’t be all this complicated information to teach a guy how to do it. After working with me a guy’s first reaction is usually, “no way it can be this easy”.

    “Since entering the community, I was getting laid like a rockstar. So what are you telling me, that what I’d learned didn’t work or is useless? Obviously not! I’m testimonial.”

    I’m telling you that you only needed to learn the tiniest bit of what you did – excluding all of the ‘what to say’ stuff – in order to get the results you got. I’m saying the vast majority of it was useless and even counter-productive and without it you would have learned faster and easier. You’re testimonial that some guys get successful despite all that shit. Many more still fail because of it, compared to 100% of my guys who succeed without it.

    “And what is wrong with we using acronyms: HB9′s, AFC’s, Beta male,etc. This is a community of men. It’s an organization of a sorts. Every organization has structure, rules, lingo, codes, etc.”

    Those acronyms are weird because they’re either unnecessary, dehumanizing, or both. Take “three set” for example – how is this any more efficient or effective than “3 girls”? Also, organizations that use different lingo often only use them to refer to inanimate things, objects or processes. The few groups that do use specialized language to talk about people are often dehumanizing them on purpose in order to create a psychological barrier to make accomplishing a goal easier. Soldiers referring to enemy combatants is the obvious example.

    Now I kind of get the idea of using language to dehumanize women in order to make it easier to talk to them, like a video game or whatever – but once again it’s just weird. It’s creating a psychological barrier between you and women – and they’re not enemy combatants, they’ve got the exact same goals as we do. The language makes us feel like we’re on separate teams or in separate groups. We’re not some secret organization trying to understand some outsiders – we’re all in this together.

  9. I really don’t even know where to start but your ideals are way off in your last comment.

    And Nick, who are you to say what is too much for a guy to learn. Some of us need a shit load to learn. Others can do well with a bit.

    And dehumanize? Come on! Referring to a woman as a target is dehumanizing lol? To whom? You’re a clown show for real. I’m out of here.

  10. Nick… As someone who has always struggled in situations where I am backed up into a corner; as in someone who always fights back strongly and aggressively… I am truly humbled to see how you “always” handle your confrontations extremely poised and classy. I used to follow the community extensively and understand where Socialkenny Pua comes from. However I have also followed you over the past few years as well. I just want to say from one stranger to another, that what you teach is a value that some of the community may never understand. You offer a value that is honest, genuine, and teaches men how to be more human and more in touch with the bigger picture. I am truly blessed that I stumbled across your work a few years ago. Maybe one day people such as Socialkenny Pua can open their minds a bit more to at least meet the other side half way. I am someone who benefited from “the community” very well… But I am also someone who wants to be a better person and find love one day not from pretending to be someone hiding behind routines, negs, and dhv’s… but someone who’s coming from good morals, values, and integrity… such as what Nick teachers. That is my rant. All the best Socialkenny Pua and Nick.

    • Thanks One, although I’m far from perfect.

      Really appreciate your perspective! Hope to see you in the forums

    • Hey One,
      I agree with what your saying. I got into the community having had almost no success with women. I had never kissed a girl or even held a woman’s hand. Getting into the Pick Up Community was a great motivator for me. It taight me that I could get better with women even if I wasn’t already good with them. This provided me a great, big, motivation. I am finding however, that sometimes it can be too long winded and over complicated, aswell as putting me into my head way too much.

      I am curious to know, when you say Nick changed your views on things, in what way was this? You say you’ve worked with him, do you mean live training or otherwise..??

      Im just interested to know how Nick affected your journey as I think my journey needs to take a different direction now…

      • Hey Christina. I don’t know how I missed your reply so apologies.

        I have never worked with Nick live however I have read almost every single article and watched many videos or his seminars.

        I am not one to follow someone blindly, but Nick’s philosophy always sounded like sound advice to me.

        I just started out taking some of his advice and applying it to my social interactions with woman. I still use some of the knowledge from “The Community” but vary sparingly now.

        For example, I’ll use time constraints, body language concepts, and still be in touch with some of the indicators of interest. However, I have replaced much of “The Communities” philosophy with much of Nick’s well constructed ideas.

        For example if you use Nick’s 60/40 rule… it literally can help change your whole thought process on woman. Many might argue Nick and call him out and ask where did he come up with those numbers however they fail to miss the key point that there are matters out of your ( a man’s) hand. When one can understand that many time’s it literally has nothing to do with what you look like, you start to change your perspectives on things.

        One of my favourite things that Nick teaches very well has to do with eye contact and conveying sexuality. It sounds so simple but there’s really an art to it. It has to do with really letting yourself go and being comfortable with yourself and being confident. This is one of the biggest differences I find between “The Community” and Nicks thoughts.

        For me it’s like the community comes from an unsecure place within every man. For me, Nick’s thought process comes from a place of strength and confidence from within.

        What he teaches is truly under rated and I can attest to this as I have noticed changes with my interactions change drastically. I’ve been able to date more, and most importantly these interactions are more healthy and positive. You can still have your fun and do what you please… but you can do everything knowing your coming from a place of confidence rather than scripts and neediness.

  11. Right here is where you lose all creditably and make it pointless for anyone to listen or read your blog.
    “The first sabotaging belief that they hold to their core is that women, especially beautiful women have a higher value than they do. They put these women on a pedestal and then believe that they somehow have to win them over, or say things that actively demonstrate their own value in order to level the playing field. If a woman isn’t in the mood to talk, it isn’t because she’s in a bad mood, it’s because they said or did the wrong thing.”

    Rule number one in the pickup community is never act, think, or behave that the women is better than you.

    Obviously you know nothing about the community and just like every human on the planet fear and judge things you don’t understand…

    Go do your research before your post.

    • Thanks for sharing your opinion Research, all viewpoints are welcome here as long as they’re respectful.

      The only thing I would say is that it doesn’t matter what “Rule number one” is if a lot of stuff that is taught goes on to break that rule. For example, if you teach that you need to have something charming or funny or interesting or “demonstrating higher value” to say when you meet a woman to get her interest, than that automatically places her at a higher perceived level to start.

      You can say whatever confident-sounding things you want, but in my opinion, when the methodology directly contradicts this confident mindset, it will just be spreading this poisonous mindset under the guise of something different.

      I’m not expecting to change your mind and am happy with an “agree to disagree” situation. I’m just saying that based on my experience working with hundreds of guys, teaching them a slew of things to say as if they need that to get a girl to like them instead of just carrying themselves in a particular way and saying whatever the hell they like indirectly causes them to believe that the women are higher value, because of what is implied in the methodology.

      You probably have experience working with a ton of guys as well to back up your feelings, and thus I respect them even though my experience has taught me differently. Thanks again for sharing.

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